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Other views not being heard; process is broken

2010-09-29T00:00:00Z Other views not being heard; process is brokenMikal Wilkerson, Letter to the editor Helena Independent Record
September 29, 2010 12:00 am  • 

Health curriculum: So, how does one affect change? Quietly? Kindly? According to process?  Hmm … tried that, many times!

Listen. We are doctors, lawyers, nurses, psychologists, business owners, counselors, teachers, computer engineers, and some ... do I dare say this ... are merely parents. I know, I get it. That makes their understanding of this material less than average ... parents just don’t understand. I get it. I’ve heard it enough times now.

We are not radicals! We have tried time and time again to affect change in a kind, quiet, according to process way (petitions with 2,500-plus names, requests, experts, etc.). Why haven’t you heard of us? Because we are not loud. We are not disrespectful. We are not seeking media attention.

All we have been asking for is a seat at the table (that takes into account other viewpoints) so something reasonable and better can be had. That is it.

Where has that gotten us? Revisions done by one person, a draft in which (stated by district) the graphic language changed but the intent stayed the same. That is an insult.

What else are we supposed to do? We have gotten nowhere. The process is broken.

Mikal Wilkerson

Helena

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(35) Comments

  1. The Porter
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    The Porter - October 10, 2010 10:32 pm
    You are absolutely right Mikal Wilkerson!
    On the 'board hears 6hrs' link, victimnsurivivor said on: October 10, 2010, 3:46 pm "I read in one of the posts here, that board claims to have been working on this curriclum for TWO YEARS! If that's true, why did we the public just hear about it in June? They answer to 'us' not the superintendant whether they believe so or not. Someone obviously DID NOT want the public to know, so that we had ample to time to stop them. Has anyone gotten transcripts of the meetings to determine the decisions or instructions to the people working on it before June 2010 or the date this was started?"

    I'd like to know if ANY seats were offered by the board(to parents or the public) PUBLICLY via the IR?
    If not then the board is noncompliance with their own mission statement:
    "Each student learns in an intellectually challenging environment that is physically and emotionally safe for students and adults." ..."Environment – All schools and work sites will be safe and foster positive and productive environments for students and staff."
    The web page also states: "Students, families, educators and the community are committed to sharing the responsibility"...But where are the parents truly being allowed in on this? If they oppose, their opinions are ignored and minimized.
    While it is ultimately an inherent the right of the parents to determine what is "emotionally" safe for their own children, the board and superintendant began this process by undermining those parental rights, effectually putting many, -no- "hundreds" of small children in emotional jeopardy. Futhermore how can any one of them possibly believe dividing up the entire community on this isssue creates in anyway a positive environment for our children?
    Do I hear breach of contract? The superintendant is not 'home grown' here. His ideas and views come from elsewhere and he apparently cares about his personal views verses that of the public he is supposed to be serving and who 'all too generously' pay his excessive wages! I'd do his job for half what he is paid and no car or house expenses from the tax payers! After all he isn't a pastor who needs to depend on the generosity of his parisioners! At least I'd allow the the taxayers, parents and the public the right to vote and voice their opinons.
  2. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 09, 2010 11:35 pm
    Claud; I told you that you would try to get the last word. As I said and you refuse to listen, I go on the web and can find numerous studies to support what I am saying but I don't do it for your benefit. You go find it if you want to see it. Like I said even if I did post the links you would discredit the source somehow. You don't even believe that Montana and Helena vote the way they do on gay rights. You just don't listen because you have an agenda so you stick with your agenda. I know it works for you
  3. claudius
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    claudius - October 09, 2010 11:58 am
    @dolphind3 - Thanks for wishing me a nice day. Most of my days are pretty good.

    Sorry. Making broad, unsupported claims and then ignoring or refusing requests for facts and proof simply argue that there is weak or non-existent support. Kind of like making claims based on "secret, classified information" that can't be divulged.

  4. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 09, 2010 12:37 am
    Last explenation claud, This was b4 my time too, My parents taught me. "I'm rubber, your glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you." It was an attempt to point out that you were doing a tit for tat and you continue to do it so it falls on deaf ears. Again, and you can last word me if you want, I am sure you will, I will not bother to go throught the web and post links to the studies that I have found because you will not agree with them and just pick them apart so it is not worth my time. Have a nice day
  5. claudius
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    claudius - October 08, 2010 10:31 am
    @dolphind3 - Since I didn't go to pre-school (no such thing when I was a kid), I guess by the time I got to grade school I had outgrown that stuff. And grade school was a 2-room country schoolhouse with an outhouse, and I walked miles each way, uphill both ways, and snow to my waist in the winter. You young city kids don't know how good you had it.

    I admit to being a little puzzled about you being tired of trying to explain things to me, since you don't seem to try to explain anything. Just broad, unsupported claims, without facts or proof. That's not explaining.

    I haven't been trying to convince you of anything, just asking for fact or reason in your claims. Since that obviously isn't forthcoming, I totally agree to disagree with you.
  6. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 07, 2010 10:43 pm
    Claud; Which part of we are going to have to agree to dis-agree did you not understand????? I am done trying to exlain things to you on this thread. I can't beleive your so thick that you don't know I am rubber your glue, either that or your to young to know what it means and if that is the case that would explain alot. One last time claud, I agree to dis-agree, your not going to convince me with your bs and I can't get you too open your eyes so that is enough. I hope someone doesn't have to explain to you what agree to dis-agree means, but that wouldn't surprise me either.
  7. claudius
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    claudius - October 07, 2010 10:30 am
    @dolphind3 - You said, "What is this I'm rubber your glue pre-school crap." ??? That doesn't even make sense.

    I don't usually pay much attention to polls, but since you make an issue about who's in the majority or minority, this speaks to that:

    "Americans' support for the moral acceptability of gay and lesbian relations crossed the symbolic 50% threshold in 2010. At the same time, the percentage calling these relations "morally wrong" dropped to 43%, the lowest in Gallup's decade-long trend."
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/135764/americans-acceptance-gay-relations-crosses-threshold.aspx

    I don't oppose or defend any particular lifestyle. What I defend is the right of people to choose a non-harmful course for their lives, and to be safe and respected in doing so. You've jumped on the proposed curriculum enhancement as an excuse for denying people those rights based on your own particular prejudices. When challenged, you reacted with misinformation and/or distortion of fact. Pointing that out hardly constitutes "drinking koolaid or spouting venom".

    Dodging the issue of facts, research, and proof while making unsupported claims doesn't provide a compelling argument.
  8. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 06, 2010 8:39 pm
    claud; What is this I'm rubber your glue pre-school crap. To see that your in the minority all one has to do is see how the public votes on gay issues, I know that is hard to wrap your brain around but it is a fact. I am not being loud just pointing out the obvious. Here is something obvious, why are we talking about this instead of the curriculum? Why do you feel the need to defend this lifestyle? Try getting off of your little soapbox and raise your own kids if you have any.
    As I browse the internet and find various sources I have no want or desire to paste them for you, It won't change your mind anyway. Again any study can be offset with another. I am tired of wasting my time with you. Keep drinking your koolaid and spouting your venom. At least gun appears to have stopped.LOL
    Oh and it is your right to your opinion and it is the majority of Helena's right to disagree with you!
  9. claudius
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    claudius - October 06, 2010 1:47 pm
    @dolphind3 - You said, "for every fact or study you provide I can show another that goes the other way." Since that is the case, it shouldn't be difficult for you to provide credible research, published in a peer-reviewed scientific publication.

    You also said, "you are in the minority here and as usual the minority is the loudest of them all."
    You provide no support at all for your claim of being in the majority, and since you seem to be among the loudest in your comments, does that mean you're actually part of a shrill minority?

    It would be nice to see facts and proofs for your claims. So far, all we see is opinion and attitude.
  10. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 06, 2010 12:50 pm
    Claud, facts are easily manufactured, for every fact or study you provide I can show another that goes the other way. I am tired of wasting my time on the likes of you. Oh and my attitude is great. Do you even have any children??? Wait don't answer that, I don't really want to know. Worry about you and yours and quit worrying about others kids. Oh and in closing....remember, you are in the minority here and as usual the minority is the loudest of them all
  11. helenros
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    helenros - October 06, 2010 10:13 am
    I would think that heterosexual celebrities making a mockery of marriage has a far more detrimental effect on the institution of marriage than allowing gay people to marry. But I guess that makes me a leftist.
  12. claudius
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    claudius - October 05, 2010 9:54 pm
    @dolphind3 - From your comment, it appears you didn't even bother to follow the link I provided. As I said, it is an *overview* of the research environment, not a study itself. It does, however, point to a number of studies that have been done. Those include research by different people, in different disciplines, looking at different aspects. They are published in peer-reviewed journals of genetics, biology, psychology, ethnology, etc. They have looked very specifically and definitely at children and babies. They have compared identical twins raised together and separately. They have followed the genetic branches of paternal and maternal ancestors, with probabilistic analysis of genetic influence.

    I don't mind agreeing to disagree. You obviously will deny facts and research no matter the source, and maintain your attitude regardless. That's your prerogative. As it is my prerogative to point out when you make false statements. You'll note that I tend to support my statements with facts.
  13. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 05, 2010 2:29 pm
    claud; Bugus study and a false claim, again we are going to have to agree to disagree. There have been studies that show differences in the brain in adults but it is not exclusive to homosexuals. They have never done a study like that of babies or even a child for that matter. Just keep drinking your koolaid and don't forget to wipe your upper lip off from time to time.
  14. claudius
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    claudius - October 05, 2010 12:23 pm
    @dolphind3 - You said, "There are no scientific studies that show that people are born gay"

    Sorry. That too is absolutely false. There has been an ever-growing body of exactly that sort of research going back decades.

    An overview here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm
  15. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 05, 2010 11:20 am
    Gun, nice post, I am sure we agree on more than either of us would care to admit. We have been married for over twenty years and have known eachother for over 24 years so I have you beat there.:)I am sure you are a good mother but one of the big differences is that I beleive that parents should raise their own children and not worry about other peoples kids. I actually had a lady tell me that I was a bad parent because I let my son have a motorcycle. It is none of her business what I do with my children. That is where I am coming from. Your right I am not on any crusades to help the divorce rate or anything else that is non of my business. The only marriage that concerns me is mine, it is up to other people to take care of theirs. There does not have to be internal conflict to make a choice or decision. It is a path. There are no scientific studies that show that people are born gay, that is an opinion and you are entitled to it. I also never said that they were abnormal, they are out of the norm or in the minority as most are straight.
    helenros; That is very sad that you really believe that you are in the majority and that the opponents are louder. Step back and look at how Helena and Montana votes. You are mistaken. You are also entitled to your opinion, even if its wrong.
  16. helenros
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    helenros - October 05, 2010 8:36 am
    I know I never chose to be straight. There was no internal debate about whether I preferred boys or girls. I can't imagine that a gay person would deliberately choose to be part of a group which is so reviled. I support the curriculum, and I believe the vast majority of Helena parents agree with me. But the opponents are much noisier.
  17. gun961960
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    gun961960 - October 04, 2010 6:43 pm
    I guess I don't really understand your point dolphin?? So gay people are not normal??? OK, so they aren't normal...does that mean they should be treated like they are less than us "normal" people?? And how am I "becoming gay"?? And what is it that claudius and I "manufactured"?? R we playing some sort of guessing word game here?? I DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE STRAIGHT....I was born that way. And lets be very clear...I am saying it is OK to be gay...there is no mention of anything being right or wrong in this curriculum. I am saying that the "sanctity" of marriage is a joke, because it is with a divorce rate of over 50%. I am happily married going on 6 years with my husband whom I have been with for nearly 14 years so my marriage aside, I am not the one trying to keep other people from enjoying the same privelages as I do simply because I don't approve of whom they love. I dont see you on a crusade to end divorce amongst your fellow heteros?? Dolphin you have trouble grasping that when others talk of depression amongst teens or bullying amongst teens or homosexuality amongst teens or sex amongst teens....we (or atleast I, as I can only speak for myself) am not generalizing ALL teenagers. Sure your kids are perfectly happy...mine seem to be too, but I know some that are not. You really need to remove the me and I and look at this from a perspective of what is going to be the best for everyone overall...the greater good if you will. I have stated before I am sure you are a good father and your wife is a good mother and you provide a good life for your children, I feel that my husband and I do too, but it isn't just about us. I also have no problem with the drug sniffing dogs or searching of lockers and personal belongings.
  18. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 04, 2010 6:37 pm
    Oh and claudius I forgot to add this, most of Helena does agree with me and as far as that goes so does most of Montana, if you don't believe me then look at the way Montana votes. In closing you are very wrong.
  19. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 04, 2010 6:30 pm
    Claudius; I am not a pulpit pounder and you can call people that don't agree with you all of the names that you want. People like you tend to do that when you lose a discussion. I said that they were out of the norm not abnormal. You are right left handers are out of the norm as most are right handed. The red head thing your kind of grasping at straws but I will bite and agree with you that they are in the minority. The only thing that I see turning red here is your face. Don't forget to breathe, breathing is very important.
  20. claudius
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    claudius - October 04, 2010 3:22 pm
    @dolphind3 - You said, "most of Helena would disagree". Sorry, that's just false. A red-faced, pulpit-pounding, table-thumping group of bigots is not "most of Helena". They're just noisier.

    10% of people are left-handed. According to your reasoning, that makes them "abnormal" and fair game for discrimination. Actually, a lot of left-handers would agree that they are discriminated against.

    2% of people are redheads. Walk into an Irish bar and explain how so many of the patrons are "abnormal" and don't deserve equal treatment.
  21. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 04, 2010 12:43 pm
    gun and claudius; Like adults we are going to have to agree to disagree. You two manufacture too many things to have a rational discussion. Gun becoming gay is like a fork in the road, you have to choose a path, you have chosen your lifestyle and it is the straight path. As for there not being any morality or values in the curriculum, most of Helena would disagree with you, the kinds of things that you are saying that are ok to you are a moral issue to most. You can't see that so that is your problem. You are the one that said the sanctity of marriage is a joke and all I did is say if your marriage is bad or a joke that you quit comparing yours to everyone elses. You said yourself that only 10% of the population is gay, well that is outside of the norm. You have no argument that can change that. Claudius, that goes for you too, and cluadius, I never said it wasn't tough to be a teenager, quite the contrary it can be very bad. But don't try to paint it as the darkest days of everyones lives. My kids enjoy going to school everyday. If the schools would do a better job of keeping the drugs out of school like allowing the police to bring in drug sniffing dogs then it would even be a safer place.
  22. claudius
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    claudius - October 03, 2010 10:13 pm
    dolphind3 said: "claudius, If that happens to one person it is wrong no matter what, wether it a hate crime or not. But don't compare black people to gays, it is not even close to the same thing. As for gun or alan supporting me...I doubt it, esprcially gun. She would be too busy spouting her venom. Trust me I am not outside the norm and if you think that I am not sure what world you are living in"

    As for the world I live in, it's the real world. If you don't think kids inhabit a real world with a lot of pain and nastiness, then you're the one in a fantasy world. Your idea of "normal" is whatever fits in with your particular viewpoint and prejudices. That's not "normal". That's just what you wish was "normal".
  23. gun961960
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    gun961960 - October 03, 2010 10:07 pm
    Dolphin....teen suicide is awful...ANY suicide by anyone is awful. I am talking specifically about this rash of suicides specifically due to gay bullying. And I don't disagree that bullying of any kind is wrong, but in this culture of gay bashing that we find ourselves in, it needs to be addressed. I also came to know my heterosexual status at a very early age. It was NEVER a choice for me. I have always liked boys...sounds like it was also NEVER a choice for you...so why is it that you believe that homosexuals make a choice? It doesn't make any sense to me? They are human beings, just like you and me.
    While they do not care particularily if you accept them or their lifestyle, society as such has made it possible for their basic civil rights to go up for a vote. So because you and your ilk "don't approve" you get to vote if they can have the same rights as you. THAT is why they want to be accepted. If it wasn't for votes, I would venture to guess they would go about their business each day as you and I do. There is no morals or values in the curriculum dolphin, so there should be no problem. They will teach your kids how to protect themselves, it is your job to teach them to save themselves. I am very optomistic that the tide is turning in this country and people like Christine Kauffman who have been in a loving monogomous relationship for 19 years can have their relationship recognized by this state just like mine is. She deserves it!!
    Oh and I thought you didn't approve of personal attacks dolphin...arent you the one constantly whining about it on here over and over again. Why are you attacking my marriage, you don't even know me.
    Claudius...well said!!
    As for comparing gays to blacks...lets see:
    blacks were ridiculed for the color of their skin, something completely out of their control and totally insignificant.
    gays...something out of their control and should be insignificant to anyone but themselves.
    There is/was no logical reason for anyone to hate black people because of the color of their skin. They weren't/aren't hurting anyone by being black
    There is no logical reason for hating someone for being gay, they aren't hurting anyone??
    Black people were literally beaten, harrassed and murdered simply for the color of their skin.
    People are literally being beaten, harrassed and murdered simply for being gay....and now they are being humiliated into killing themselves as well....so sad.
    So they are very close and just like the civil rights movement against racists there is a civil rights movement going on now for the homosexuals. And I will continue "spouting" off against people like you who think so highly of yourselves that you would actually deem yourself and your "lifestyle" to be more normal or better than that of someone different than you....and one day they will be free to live their lives in peace.
  24. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 03, 2010 1:32 pm
    claudius, If that happens to one person it is wrong no matter what, wether it a hate crime or not. But don't compare black people to gays, it is not even close to the same thing. As for gun or alan supporting me...I doubt it, esprcially gun. She would be too busy spouting her venom. Trust me I am not outside the norm and if you think that I am not sure what world you are living in
  25. claudius
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    claudius - October 02, 2010 5:33 pm
    @dolphind3 - You fault 'gun961960' for stretching a point. Matthew Shepard was only 1 out of how many violent homicides when they beat him to death in Wyoming. The black man drug to death behind a pickup truck in Texas last year was hardly noticeable...statistically. When black people spoke up for their rights as citizens, they were being "uppity". They were supposed to just shut up and move to the back of the bus.

    Whether you care to admit it or not, the social environment in schools can be a vicious, brutal thing. Whether it's beating up the kid in chess club and stomping on his glasses, or tripping and kicking the unpopular girl who dared to try out for cheerleader, if the school administration doesn't have the tools and the will to keep that sort of crap in check, it does indeed take place...a LOT.

    As for people "outside the norm" not being supposed to speak up, you're obviously outside the norm yourself. Most everyone is. And from what I see in your comments, if you felt discriminated against for ANYTHING, you'd be the loudest voice in the state demanding your rights. And do you have the slightest doubt that 'gun961960' and 'alanmt' would be among the ones most solidly supporting you?
  26. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 01, 2010 10:21 pm
    Gun; I have found 4 over suicides over the last month not 5 over the last week and that is nationwide and non of them were here in Montana where according to you the bullying is so terrible that we need this radical curriculum. What about all of the teens nationwide that commited suicide, teen suicide is the number two killer of teens in this country and every fifteen minutes someone takes there life in this country, that is not just teens. That is 2880 deaths per month in this country and you try to grasp on to four in one month. Just so you know that is like .1% of the total suicides that were actually gay bullying. Your grasping at straws here.
    Gun lets see, I had my first date with a girl in the 6th grade, it was very innocent but that is probably when I made my choice or shortly before that.
    Also if nobody cares if their lifestyle is accepted like you say then why is there such a big push to have gays be accepted just like alan said?? Why because it is all about trying to gain acceptance for a lifestyle that is outside of the norm. Oh and I will tell who I know I am, I am a man who could care less about a man marrying another man, what they do behind their walls is up to them, but when you or anyone else tries to tell me or my children that the lifestyle is ok I draw the line there. I have news for you gun, the main problems with this curriculum has everything to do with values and morals (that is why so many are concerned). Maybe you don't care because either you like being told what to do or you have no morals or values. Also, we voted about peoples spousal choices gun and the majority agree with me that it should remain between a man and a woman.
    I am sorry that your marriage is such a joke but that is your problem not ours, maybe if you let your husband wear the pants once in a while it might get a little better.Lol,I thought I would add that lol just to show you how immature it is when you do it.. darling.
  27. gun961960
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    gun961960 - October 01, 2010 5:52 pm
    So dolphin, when did you make the "choice" to be a heterosexual? You did imply there was a choice involved....
    And nobody cares if you or anybody "accepts" their lifestyle, but who do you think you are that you can legislate laws on a consenting adults spousal choice? And please don't tell me about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage....that is a joke anymore. I know, lets make a law that if gays can't get married, than straights can't get divorced?? Seems fair to me!! 5 kids have KILLED THEMSELVES just this week alone from being bullied because they are gay...and you say there is no problem?? LOL...ya whatever
  28. dolphind3
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    dolphind3 - October 01, 2010 10:48 am
    Just me; alan is not going to listen to you, like you said, they only see it from one way and have an agenda of acceptance. I have never complained about a gay couple holding hands, as a society we are not required to accepct someone for making a personal choice as alan has done. Don't start preaching to me about being born that way, you have made a choice to live the lifestyle that you are in and you put your daughter in that situation. Now my kids would never make fun of her for any reason let alone her fathers, nor would I or my wife. But don't tell me that I have to accept your lifestyle as ok. To me and the majority of montanan's it is not. So now since you can't convince the adults you want to start trying to teach our children that you are normal or ok(your words). You keep your veiws and agenda out of my kids mind and I won't tell your child that your not normal or that she should attend church or whatever. These are personal views and you have yours which I respect and we have ours. You may not like it but respect it. Afterall it is you who is out of the norm
  29. alanmt
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    alanmt - October 01, 2010 6:04 am
    justme:

    1.There are very good reasons for specifically targeting homophobic bullying. It is a serious problem, and it absolutely happens a lot more than other bullying. It strikes kids who are particularly vulnerable, many of whom can't complain about it because their own family might disown them it they find out, and because too often the adults who are supposed to stop this kind bullying won't. In the past couple of weeks, five teens have been driven to suicide by homophobic bullying. When was the last time you heard of someone being driven to suicide because of anti-jock or oriental or smart kid bullying? Only someone who is ignorant about what happens in school or simply doesn't care about gay kids could fail to see the seriousness of this particular kind of bullying and the need for a specific protocol.

    Oh, I get the picture, all right. You are so adamantly opposed to homosexuality that you would rather put children at risk than allow any mention (let alone sympathetic treatment) of homosexuality in school policy. That is shameful.

    I described my family circumstances because it was germane to the discussion. This talk of "flaunting" my "way of life" is simply a double standard. If I hold my wife's hand while walking on the sidewalk in the evening it is romantic. If I hold my husband's, it is "flaunting". It also represents your unreasonable desire to be allowed to pretend homosexuals don't exist. You had better examine your prejudices. Sentences which state "that is exactly the problem with you" homosexuals/blacks/catholics/women/Mexicans are bigoted statements, evidence of a prejudiced mind.

    Don't be so disingenuous. The removal of the simple concept that gay people exist and that kids can have two dads or moms from the first grade curriculum is nothing more than an attempt to publicly maintain prejudice against gay people, amd to make sure that my little girl and her classmates don't get the message that her family is okay. And yes, Montana does recognize our legal status as her joint parents.

    I am guessing you and Mikal don't really know any gay families. It is always easier to justify hurting theoretical people rather than actual ones you know.
  30. justme59601
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    justme59601 - September 30, 2010 11:16 am
    @ alanmt,

    you asked mikal why she wants it ok for your daughter to be bullied or why she wants to hurt your daughter. apparently you're a very close minded person or at least won't listen to anything that contradicts what you already believe. what those of us opposed to the "proposed" health curriculum have said many times is that we don't need to teach our kids to not bully homosexuals, we teach our children to be kind to everyone. period. it's absurd to single out any one group that we should be kind to. otherwise why don't we mention blacks, or handicapped people. or orientals. or the smart people. or the jocks. get the picture yet?

    what you said in your letter is exactly the problem with homosexuals. your appear to want to flaunt your way of life. when I talk about my kids, I don't also throw in what my sexual orientation is because it doesn't matter. why did you include it? does it matter to anyone else but you and your partner? should it matter to anyone else?

    as for your second question, shame on you for asking it as you are a lawyer. the school district doesn't recognize or not recognize your union with your partner. that's a legal issue, not a school district issue. it doesn't mean that anyone wants to treat your daughter differently or ostracize her. quit acting like a martyr.
  31. alanmt
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    alanmt - September 29, 2010 12:27 pm
    Mikal, your husband is on the board. How can you possibly say your views are not being heard?

    As long as I am asking questions, let me ask a few more. But first, some information. I am a lawyer. My husband is an administrator. Our daughter is an infant. A sweet, innocent baby girl who is blessed to have to loving parents who both happen to be men. Our marriage, entered into in Canada, is not legally recognized in my home state. But our status as joint parents is legally recognized here.

    Please tell me, Mikal:

    1. Why do you want to hurt my daughter?

    2. Why do you insist that the school district pretend her family doesn't exist, that it treat her differently than her classmates, that it ostracize her?

    3. Why do you want it to be okay for her to be bullied?
  32. claudius
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    claudius - September 29, 2010 11:53 am
    Ever notice how the fundamentalists and the reactionary right shout and pound on the table, "We want our voices to be heard!"? All this while trying desperately to make sure no OTHER voices can be heard?

    Ever notice how they claim, "This is being rammed down our throats!", while working tirelessly to ram their own moralistic bigotry down everyone elses' throats?

    Ever look and listen in amazement as they march and preach, "We're going to take back America!", and wondering to yourself, "Take it back from whom? Where did it go? Isn't this still America? Shouldn't everyone have a say?"

    Just askin'.........
  33. gun961960
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    gun961960 - September 29, 2010 9:54 am
    Mikal, Listen WE are doctors (several of whom have testified IN FAVOR of this curriculum, at least four just last night) nurses (several of whom helped create this curriculum) lawyers, psychologists, business owners, counselors, teachers (again several of whom have testified and helped create this curriculum, Mrs Seitz I believe is who testified that she was part of this curriculum committee and there was nothing underhanded about it), engineers and some Mikal, dare I say like me whom are "merely parents". AND GUESS WHAT MIKAL, we support this curriculum. Please stop playing the victim, it really is tiresome. I know there were more opponents last night who spoke, but when I left at 8:15 there were still several proponents lined up to speak so it wasn't by much. One thing I found very interesting last night was how many opponents stood up and claimed that our community does not support this curriculum. How dare you think you speak for "our community". Not once did I hear the same from the proponents. Never did they claim to speak for EVERYONE. One opponent even sited many surveys that had been done??? Although I believe he was a pastor at a local church, so I am guessing his surveys were done on Sundays and could be described as slightly biased. I know I haven't seen any surveys or been asked where I stand and I have been to every meeting and public hearing.
    Mikal darling trust me, YOU HAVE BEEN HEARD....WE HEAR YOU. Your husband has a seat on the board or "at the table". Just because you don't like the outcome, doesn't mean you havent been "heard". Your side (not necessarily you) has been abnoxiously loud (Tim Ravndal and Kristi Allen are two examples that come to mind LOL and to say they arent loud and disrespectful is laughable) and weren't you on Faux news??
    What do you want the board to do? Throw out this curriculum, because it doesn't fit in your Bible? Are we really to throw away sound medically accurate FACTUAL information, because God doesn't agree with it? You had people stand up last night and claim the following;
    One older gentleman stood there and blurted out, "this is pornography, all of it"
    One young mother cried (literally) "you have let Satan in"
    There were too many to mention who spoke about how wrong homosexuality was and how dangerous a lifestyle those people are "choosing" to live????
    I could not keep track of how many clergy spoke or how many times God was envoked.
    Here is a tip for you Mikal, KEEP GOD OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Oops, I guess there goes your arguement.
    Another mantra for last night was that somewhere in the curriculum, although I am not sure where (probably because like most of your arguements, the evidence does not exist) it must read that PARENTS ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED TO BE INVOLVED WITH THEIR CHILDRENS LIVES OR EDUCATION. Could someone please refer me to the page number where this is indicated. I heard over and over and over and over again that parents rights were being removed and that the school board was trying to raise their kids. NOBODY is removing your rights, you can still teach your kids your values (however warped they may be). This curriculum can serve as either a starter conversation with your kids about a variety of topics or a supplement to what you have already taught them. BE INVOLVED!! Nobody is taking anything away from you. There are no values and morals included in this curriculum. Instead your entire argument for denying our children this curriculum is soley based on YOUR "morals" and "values"....isn't it??
  34. Common Sense
    Report Abuse
    Common Sense - September 29, 2010 7:51 am
    I believe a big part of the problem is that we the voters have taken it for granted that canidates for elected positions are going to place the wellfare of our children over their personal and political agendas. There must be some way to vete these people. We need to have options. Maybe a recall election for Dr. Messinger? The arrogance of this guy is simply amazing. He is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the education unions. He has tried to ram down our throats the most liberal and statist views I've ever seen. Time for a change, let's vote in people who have respect for values and the rights of a parent to guide their child's education. Throw the bums out!
  35. The Big L
    Report Abuse
    The Big L - September 29, 2010 7:26 am
    If you want a seat at the table, get elected to the board. Not that tough to figure out. Otherwise, go through the same process that every other resident of the state of Montana goes through with public hearings.

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